Kara Swisher is the epitome of a multi-hyphenate: a podcast host, journalist, author, and CEO agitator.
Swisher has also, in her way, turned IDGAF into her personal brand. Deeply sourced and happy to ask the hard questions, she doesn’t care about being liked. As she said during a recent live event, “I have four kids!”
As the host of On With Kara Swisher, her twice weekly podcast for Vox Media, she grills leaders in tech and politics, coaxing them to share the things they may not reveal on any other gabfest. For Pivot, her Vox show with New York University marketing professor Scott Galloway, she keeps the banter between herself and her cohost—but still, she doesn’t hold back. Swisher’s opinions are her own, and she doesn’t hesitate to share them.
Swisher brought all of her opinions, and more, to this week’s episode of The Big Interview, going deep on AI, Silicon Valley’s relationship with President Donald Trump, and which tech CEO is her least favorite.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
KATIE DRUMMOND: Kara Swisher, welcome to The Big Interview. Thank you for being here.
KARA SWISHER: Thank you. I’m sorry I can’t be in-person at your beautiful studio.
Next time.
Who’s that behind you?
Actually nobody listening to this can see it, but it’s a giant version of the WIRED cover with Edward Snowden.
Oh yeah. Look at him.
One of our reporters, Andy Greenberg, had this in his house for years, and then finally was like, “My wife needs me to get this out of the house. Can I bring it to the office?” And I said, “sure.” So now it sits behind me when I record this podcast.
I did a good interview with him many years ago.
He’s still out there.
Yeah. He is.
We like to start with some quick-fire questions. I’m sure you’re used to this kind of thing. You ready to go?
Ready.
OK. Most active text thread you’re on.
God. With my kids.
Podcasts or Substacks?
What do you mean? Do I listen?
Pick one.
Oh, podcasts.
I figured.
Obviously.
The tech exec you would least want to get stuck in an elevator with.
Oh my God. All of them. Um, Mark Zuckerberg.
More disruptive: AI or social media?
Social media.
Still or sparkling?
Still.
What’s the biggest lie Silicon Valley keeps telling itself?
That it cares about people.
Who would play you in a biopic?
Well, that’s a good question. I was just having a meeting about that.
Oh, tell us more.
I will. But do you want more, or quick [answers]?
Now I want more.
OK. My Burn Book sold to a production studio, Tomorrow Studios—maybe it’ll get made, maybe it won’t. But I’m actually meeting writers, and I think they feel like they can sell it. So we’ll see.
Who do they feel like would play you?
I don’t know. I think they had talked about Kristen Stewart, I think.
That’s good.
It should be a believable lesbian, right, who’s kind of a sassy person. I love Aubrey Plaza. I think she’s great. But she’s too tall. They’re all too tall is the problem. There’s no one sort of tiny.
There are no tiny actors?
Yes, there are, but it’s gotta be—I’m just trying to think who it would work well with. I mean, probably the woman who plays Wednesday, what’s her name?
Jenna Ortega.
Jenna Ortega might work. It’s gotta be someone who—well, they don’t have to be … height doesn’t matter. I guess they can act their way out of that.
Yeah.
I think an unknown. An unknown.
I like it. What’s the interview that changed you the most?
Oh, the Gates-Jobs interview. The one that Walt Mossberg and I did together with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. That was a really important interview. I think it’s gonna last the test of time. I think people will watch it centuries from now. It was really a highlight of my career.
Usually in these conversations I would sort get into someone’s background and ask them about their childhood.
No.
I’m not gonna do that. I feel like we have too much to talk about. But I did want to use this as an opportunity to ask you about being a woman, being a gay woman, no less, in an historically male field. The subjects of your reporting very often are men.
You did a podcast a while ago called Design Matters. You said that you wanted to write a series of three books for women and other people who may need these books, and they would be: No Is a Complete Sentence; Yes, I’ll Take That; and Maybe I’ll Call You Back.
Yeah, I think it’s brilliant.
Tell me more about the experience of being a woman, and gay woman, in the field you’re in.
I think gay has not hurt me, actually, in the field, because I think that men are more comfortable with me for some reason. Because I guess we like ladies, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is. They’re largely straight men, and it’s largely straight white men, actually.
So I think they’re relatively comfortable with the gay part. I’ve never really gotten any kind of pushback on that issue. Actually, I do think it’s a net positive in general.
Yeah?
I think I’ve told this story, but I was at an event, and a bunch of VCs were looking at the ladies and they’re like, “Oh, she’s cute. What do you think, Kara?” And I go, “Still a feminist. I don’t talk about women objectively like that.”
As a woman, I don’t think that’s hindered me necessarily, either. Even if they do it in hiring, and they create these manospheres in technology, which they’ve done for a long time, it hasn’t kept me out. They haven’t favored men—or men who are slavishly attentive to them—until recently. Then they’re willing to do interviews. But that has to do with slavishness not with anything else.
I think there’s a lot to your style and your approach that has meant that you are often described as unlikable. I think that that is a function of being a woman. I don’t hear a lot of strong-willed men being described as unlikable.
Yes, exactly. I don’t care.
Did that ever waver? I mean, how did you learn not to care? Or do you just genetically not care?
Genetically not care. I just was like that when I was a kid. You know, again, it may have gone along with being a lesbian. I don’t know. Just like, I don’t need the favor of men.
It was interesting, because I don’t think it is unlikable. It’s that I’m being honest with them. Whenever I do interviews, I don’t do the wind-up. I don’t say I am gonna do one thing and then do another. I think that’s relatively fair. I actually have gotten more than my fair share of great interviews, right? They haven’t not interviewed with me. Why are you so mean? Like I get that from some of them—not all of them, for sure—but some of them who are really sensitive.
One more question on this topic. I’ve wanted to ask you this. I’m obviously a woman. I work in journalism. I work in tech. I get a lot of advice as a woman in this job in particular, about the way I dress, about the fact that I don’t wear makeup. Every time there’s a social clip of me that runs on the WIRED account, at least one person will say, “Makeup, please.” I don’t wear makeup. I’m not interested in wearing makeup. What advice do you have?
Just ignore it.
But for women in general who are ambitious, who work in male-centric spaces. Ignore it, sure. But what else?
I tend to meet that kind of stuff with jokes that are insulting, that do the same thing. Sometimes when men start down that negging road, I often go, “Did you lose weight? Oh, no, I guess not.” That’s one of my favorites.
I was on a TV show, and one of my sons was with me, who was, I guess, maybe 12 or 13 at the time. I’ve taught them well. I went in and the guy who was sitting in the green room with my son was like, “Doesn’t your mother smile?” And my son looked at him and said, “Did you just say that?” And that’s all he said.
That’s incredible. I get “smile” a lot and have started just saying “No, that’s just my face.”
I really don’t hear it anymore. I just don’t. It’s so stupid. They’re so fucking juvenile. I have enough toddlers in my life that I don’t need more.
Well, speaking of toddlers, we have to talk about leadership in the tech industry.
They are toddlers.
They are toddlers. You’ve covered them, you’ve interviewed them for decades. When you look back now, who among this set has continued to take their responsibility to all of us, to society, most seriously, and who has failed the most profoundly?
The surprise to me has been Mark Cuban, actually. I broke the story when he sold his company to Yahoo. I was at The Wall Street Journal at the time. And he was somewhat of an arrogant little prick …
I actually just interviewed him, and I reminded him that you said he was an arrogant prick.
He was so arrogant. But I still liked him. He’s a pleasant fellow. But he’s really developed into this really interesting, complex person. I never necessarily know what he’s gonna say, but I always know he is gonna have thought about it. I suspect through having kids and other things, he’s really developed and matured. Another person like that is Evan Spiegel from Snapchat.
He was mad at the press and decided I was the press. There was a whole bad set of emails…
OK. I believe it.
He was in college, like, I’m gonna give him an out.
I remember this.
We were having lunch, and he yelled at me. I was like, “I didn’t write word one about this. Honestly, I don’t know why you’re yelling at me.” He was mad at the press, in general. He has really developed into a really thoughtful person.
[Airbnb CEO] Brian Chesky is another person I like a lot who I really think is honest about his feelings. We don’t, like, cuddle and comb each other’s hair. But I really think he tries to be a better person, I guess a better man.
Most of them do not try to be a better man, but in general, Zuckerberg is at the top of the list. Elon Musk obviously, but I think he’s plagued by other issues.
Sure.
That’s not an excuse, that’s just an explanation. I think there’s a lot going on there that is really, um, I don’t want to say tragic, because he kind of brings it on himself. But it’s sad. It’s really sad.
It’s sad.
You know, Tim Cook these days is a little bit—especially since he’s retiring—I’m like, Really? This is how you want to go out?
Well, this is what I’m wondering about. I ask anyone I can about this, because I’m genuinely curious for different interpretations. This cozy dynamic between tech leaders and politicians. Here we all are at dinner together. It’s on C-SPAN. Here I am in my tuxedo in the UK, in the palace with the president. I mean, here I am with a tchotchke in the Oval Office. That’s a Tim Cook example.
The gold statue. Yeah.
I want your assessment of why these executives—they’re not only working with the administration behind the scenes, you have to imagine they’re doing that—but there is this overt demonstration of fealty that we are seeing.
It’s interesting you bring up Mark Cuban. I asked him this question, and he said, “If they need to get knee pads that are embroidered with a D on one knee and a T on the other knee, and show up at the White House every day, they don’t have much of a choice.” He seemed to think that was just the way business works. That it’s a business imperative.
In any administration, there’s versions of that, right? So you have to curry favor. It’s usually just dinner and a donation. That kind of thing. Now this guy requires a different kind of fealty, which is a very explicit, performative fealty.
So if this is the cost of doing business, this is the cost of doing business. I feel they don’t have to. I don’t think it’s the cost of doing business. But they seem to think it is. And there certainly are a lot of juicy bits to slice up.
You’re rich, so you don’t have to do this. But I think they feel a duty to their shareholders. That’s their number one. They don’t have a duty to society. They don’t feel like they have a duty to anything else.
On the other side, there’s people who like it. People who like to exercise power. Zuckerberg would be one of those. He really does think this, because he’s a particularly victimized person. He always feels like he’s a victim. So I think he kind of wants to do it. He’s so tired of ladies telling him what to do. He is gonna put on his MMA mitts and go for it.
Any performative maleness should be a sign for you to run for the hills. And some of them have switched, like Sergey Brin has gotten quite Trumpy. I know this from his family, most of whom are horrified. He’s got a girlfriend who’s real Trumpy. So there he goes down Trump Avenue, and I kind of think it makes sense.
I ran into one of them, and I’m not gonna say which one, and they’re like, “Looks like we won, Kara. We beat you, Kara.” They’re in DC where I live, which, I’m like, “Why did you come to my home? I moved all the way across the country to get away from you.”
It was at some event. “Looks like we won, Kara.” And I go, “Hmm, you did. But you’re still an asshole.”
Very nice.
They just went “pfffsssttt.” Because they’re still an asshole. Whatever. Good luck.
It’s obviously different for any given executive, right? They’re obviously different people. When you think about the short-term gain, long-term pain, how do you see this playing out in three years? Assuming we have a different administration in a way that hurts these companies.
It’s shortsighted. I think it’s really shortsighted, because at some point someone else will be in charge. I do make the joke over and over: If Kamala Harris won, Mark Zuckerberg would be a they/them. Right? He’d be like, “I love kombucha and Charli XCX, my favorite. Taylor Swift is the best.”
I think a lot of them are in fear. Very much so. Fear of hurting their business. You know, they can see what he’s doing. He seems very willing to take it to the mat.
I was with some Apple people who are just horrified by Tim’s behavior. I go, “Well, I guess, shareholder value.” And they said, “It isn’t good for shareholder value. It’s not, because it’s not what our company is.” So in the short term, they get a tariff break. But as a rule, it’s not about businesses, it’s about oligarchy and therefore you don’t compete based on the right things. You also don’t let little companies rise. If you control everything, you’re gonna atrophy.
What has felt interesting to me is that there’s obviously the silence at the executive level, which we didn’t see in 2016 to this extent, but there’s also the silence of the workforce inside these companies.
They’re worried.
I mean, you hear it anecdotally, but we’re not seeing mass uprisings inside Google, inside Apple. We’re not seeing this really spill over.
No. They fire them. They just fired an Amazon person who protested for Palestine. Like when did those free-speech warriors let that happen? That’s the whole thing. That was such a performative amount of bullshit that it was like it just suited them to do that.
They don’t want people to say what they think, or else I’d be doing regular interviews with Mark Zuckerberg. He wants people to tell him how great he is at MMA.
Well, Mark, you’re a big important man. When you look at Silicon Valley, when you look at the industry, when you look at leadership, do you have any hope that we will see a new kind of leader emerge in this industry?
Sure.
Is it a generational shift? What does that require, and are there people out there who are representative of that to you right now?
Well, my own son. My son is a tech person, and he’s studying tech at Michigan, and it’s not ’cause I trained him or anything. He’s also a frat bro, so I didn’t stop that.
That’s too bad, I’m sorry to hear that.
He likes it. They’re nice kids. All his friends and the people around him talk about much deeper things like energy, about fixing things, about climate.
I just taught a course at Michigan, largely so I could irritate my son for seven weeks. I was so moved by the students. They’re not dumb and idealistic, although I don’t mind that in a college student, by the way.
They really do have a sense of community. Like my son, he’s a mechanical engineer. He wants to make things, and a lot of it has to do with community helping people. At the same time, he’s a capitalist, right? But he doesn’t see it as a power thing. Maybe someday he will, and then I’ll slap him back to last Sunday. But I do think that he has the real idealism of like, I wanna make something that matters, that’ll help a lot of people.
Right.
I’ve been doing this documentary for CNN about longevity and health and all those people I find to be really moving. But it’s not like dumb optimism. Like a lot of the early internet people, like Zuckerberg was always like, What I really wanna build is something to bring the world together. And he never did. Like, it was all bullshit. The first story I ever wrote for The Wall Street Journal was about the lies Silicon Valley tells itself. It was all like, We’re here for the community. There’s no CEO here. They had like 10 of them that when I immediately got there from the East Coast, I was like, that’s a bullshit. That’s a bullshit. These younger people aren’t like that. They’re not telling themselves lies.
So we have hope.
I do. I was glad to do that teaching thing at Michigan, because the problem is these guys, right? It’s not the younger people. I do think we’ve left them with a bag of shit.
Both my older sons aren’t on social media anymore. I don’t think they’re unusual. Like my one older son got off a bunch of them, and I said—well, I didn’t tell him to do it—so I was like, “Why did you do that?” And he goes, “It makes me feel bad.” A very simple sentence. He’s not a tech person. He understands, and all his friends are like that too.
Well, he’s right. It makes me feel bad too.
Yeah. Well, why do you stay on Twitter, then?
I don’t.
OK, good.
I deleted my account. I don’t like it. I don’t want to be there. I don’t need to be there. No one can force me.
Yeah. No one can.
I am curious about you and social media. In particular, I would say that when I see criticism of Kara Swisher, it’s usually on social media, and it’s something to the effect of, “Kara Swisher was bullish on the industry for too long. She built these guys up. Now here she is tearing them down …”
Hmm.
“… but she won’t answer for her role in X, Y, Z.” Do you pay attention to that?
I don’t, because, you know, I was a beat reporter. I was writing about their businesses. I think where it comes from is Elon, and I did have great hopes for Elon. I think that’s where most of it comes from.
I was never nice to Zuckerberg. I dare you to go find a nice article I wrote.
The iconic sweaty interview.
I mean, I’m sorry. I was very questioning of all their privacy issues. I was questioning all their sneaky bullshit they did around people’s counts.
I really did like Steve Jobs. I did, and I thought those interviews were pretty interesting. I don’t think they were slavish, and I thought they were actually fascinating. We challenged him constantly.
But, you know, that’s fine. I think it’s all around Elon. I would cop to that. I really was so tired of all these very selfish people like Zuckerberg. I had great hopes when someone was working on cars and climate and really cool stuff. There were a bunch of smart people working on stupid things. And here was someone who wasn’t, really wasn’t.
With a huge vision.
So I guess when Steve died, I and others were looking for that, looking for a bigger idea. So yeah, I would cop to that. The idea that I made any of these people is just utter bullshit. They were made because they’re billionaires. They were made because they created significant companies. So I don’t think I helped him by any means. If you actually go back and listen to the interviews, they’re not as kind as you think they are. I think they’re pretty fair.
When I do the heel turn and I’m like, wait a minute, this is a real problem. I’m quite liberal, but that’s my issue with a lot of liberals: When people change, the purity tests are exhausting. For a lot of friends of mine who are conservative, who do not like Trump. Well, you can’t come in our thing ’cause you were with them. Imperfect allies is life, right? That part I’m like, Oh, for fuck’s sake. You and your purity test can go fuck yourself.
I have to ask you about AI.
All right. OK.
One of the things we’ve been covering at WIRED a lot recently are the talent wars, which I am obsessed with just because they are so outrageous and outlandish.
I love reading your stuff.
Well, thank you. I mean, much credit to the reporters who go get these scoops.
Can I please make a point? You are so smart in creating narratives, and this is a great one. This, the DOGE one. You did great. You understood. It’s something we did at All Things D, we had narratives, whether it was Yahoo or it was Uber. That was a big narrative for us. But this one is really breathtaking.
It is wild. Who would you rather work for: Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg, if they were both offering you a hundred million dollars?
Altman.
How do you differentiate between the two?
I mean, it’s a low bar, isn’t it? I think in the times I’ve spent with Sam, there are touches of normalness. Like he understands his problem better. Mark has no idea about his problems. He doesn’t look backwards for one second.
I thought when Sam did this whole opt-out thing, I thought that was breathtakingly typical of these people. I was surprised by it. I guess I wasn’t surprised, ’cause they always do this. This AI thing, it’s really interesting because I think, didn’t AMD just announce another Oracle deal today?
I mean the deals are—it’s on a daily basis.
[Pivot podcast cohost] Scott Galloway and I had said it reminds us of PurchasePro back with AOL. You don’t remember this, but AOL did a bunch of deals like this where you give people money and then they’d buy ads on your service. And then you’d invest in them and get warrants and you’d get, then they would invest …
Like circular deals?
It was called round-tripping at the time. And one of these companies came up to me and said, “Well, you shouldn’t call it round-tripping Kara, they’re real.” I’m like, Well, nothing’s being made here. Like, you’re just moving $5 back and forth. And I said, “Would you prefer ‘circle jerk’? I’ll use that word if you like, ’cause that’s what it feels like.”
And salaries are part of that, right? You know, at some point someone’s going to be very wealthy from this, and so maybe the bet isn’t a bad one. It’s just that if everyone’s making this bet, especially around talent and investments, someone’s going to lose just like they did in the early internet era.
Except the profound effect of it is massive, because these are the companies that are holding up the entire stock market. So it has bigger implications. With the salary stuff it’s like every time I read a story of yours I’m like, That’s insane.
It’s ridiculous money. My question to you is: From where you sit, what is the there there with AI, what’s real in this moment and what is marketing? What is hype? What is fearmongering?
What’s really important about AI is it’s a general-purpose technology, right? It crosses everything. It’s not like you’re going from farming to mechanized farming, that’s a single device. So you could see it changing so many different fields. It’s going to effect information people. But in combination, which I think is left out of a lot of this, is robotics plus AI. I think robotics gets no attention.
You mean physical robotics?
Yes. That’s because Elon’s running the discussion, because it’s all about humanoid-looking robots. But I’m talking about real robots. They’re not gonna look, by the way, like a humanoid robot. A lot of gears, like very, very simple robots that are gonna do everything. Then they’re powered by AI.
So if everything’s getting affected, some companies are gonna control quite a lot of everything, right? Then it will take individual companies in those sectors, like insurance or whatever the sector happens to be, medicine—and then they will be the winner of that game. So if you were one of the winners, you’d think the money was well-spent. And if you aren’t, then it’s just gone. Right?
Anyone you’re willing to bet on at this stage?
No. I mean, I’m always sort of sitting there going, Is OpenAI Netscape or Google? Everyone thought Netscape hung the fucking moon, and then it just didn’t. Remember that?
Barely, but I do.
Yes. If I had a bet, I suspect OpenAI. I feel like they’re Google. I think they are doing just enough and innovating just enough. I suspect Google itself has a lot of advantages. In some areas, Microsoft, not so much Amazon. Apple will sort of ride on everybody’s rails.
Where does Meta end up in all of this?
They have a lot of information. They sure do.
There’s no vision though.
No. I think [Zuckerberg] is just throwing money at it. Where he could go is advertising. They’re all moving into advertising, aren’t they? That’s an area he certainly can dominate.
Well, now I’m interested in talking about journalism with you.
Edward [Snowden] is now on your shoulder, just so you know. He’s right there. Touch him gently.
Very gently. He’s been through a lot. I’m interested in your assessment of tech journalism and the balance between quote-unquote “access” journalism. Right? Which is essentially where a company, let’s say, invites you in. You meet with all their executives, you write something that is tacitly agreed will be a friendly piece versus accountability journalism.
I remember 15, 20 years ago, access was really much more the name of the game. Then in the mid-2010s, it really shifted.
Yeah.
I’m curious if you think we still need the access part. Is there value in that kind of reporting?
No, no. As someone who had a lot of access, being at The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, I always felt it was kind of icky, you know what I mean? It wasn’t good, and you didn’t really get that much out of it. It wasn’t really a plus.
It was interesting, because we got a lot of access even though we weren’t big, ’cause they thought we could hurt them. I think that was really what it was.
I don’t think access gives you much of anything, because people are leaky as can be these days. I think I kind of perfected that at All Things D, with Yahoo. The joke that I was in the heating ducts and stuff like that. Like getting stuff not from them—getting memos, getting insiders to say what was happening. When I started really doing that more heavily, as opposed to when I was at The Wall Street Journal, everything changed. The power dynamic was very different ’cause you didn’t need those people.
All you needed to do was be a really good reporter and call and call and call. Like what you guys did with DOGE was sort of classic. I don’t think you were hanging around with Elon Musk at all.
Absolutely not.
But you didn’t need to, because there were enough sources. As communications have changed, people can text or Signal, and that didn’t exist in my earliest days. They had to call you or you had to physically see them.
I don’t mind having interesting conversations. Like if you guys did a great Big Interview with Tim Cook, I’d be interested in it.
Well, if he would say anything, which again, is the issue with access—it’s very controlled. It’s very carefully managed.
I think some of those interviews we did at the Code Conference and All Things D, like Mark’s wedding interview was a moment for him. He’s not doing this again. Because he really, really messed up. But the more problematic interview was the later one he agreed to do with me about the Holocaust deniers, where I got him to say stuff.
After that, I knew I was never gonna get another interview, because something in me is able to get him to say a thing that’s the truth, right? For some reason, in our rapport, he seems nervous or whatever it happens to be. So I think all of them looked around and said, “Why should we talk to fucking Kara Swisher, an unlikable bitch? She’s always going to bust our chops and not saying how smart we are.”
So then they just did their own media. They do their conferences. I couldn’t do a conference like Code today. No way. They go do their own thing.
Right.
I bet you get them a lot better because you get them the other way, you know?
For sure. I mean, as a journalist, it’s much more interesting work to be doing.
And then you don’t have to talk to them.
Well, yes.
I mean, not to not check facts, that’s different. You have to call the company, you have to get the response. But I’ve noticed lately, I was reading one of your stories, and they didn’t get back to you.
No. They don’t. They don’t necessarily feel the need to be in touch.
I’ve noticed that more than anything else, like you call them for a fact and they don’t even get back to you now. That’s really strange to me. That seems like a really bad development.
Let me ask you this: The New York Times did a story on your podcasting success earlier this year. They had a quote from you that caught my attention. You said, “At the end of this long career, it’s like, ‘Oh wow. I made something people really like.’” What caught my attention was the “end of a long career” bit, because it made me think, do you see yourself stopping at any point? Is retirement an appealing option for you? Or maybe you wouldn’t characterize it as retirement?
You know what happens, I just keep doing really well.
It’s hard to do well.
I think I’m entrepreneurial, right? So far, everything’s worked really well, and every time I make more money, it’s sort of weird. Like the podcasting thing worked out rather well for me. It’s actually a product I really am proud of. Over your career you’re like, Oh, I didn’t like this part. I’ve kind of got it to where I like it, right?
I kind of like where I am. At the same time, one, I think older people should get outta the fucking way for young people. Two, I have a number. I think it’s 70. I will quit. I will just do whatever I want. I was thinking I’ll write historical novels or, you know, sit in my garden. I’ll end up doing well ’cause I’m actually quite entrepreneurial. Like, I’ll make honey or something.
You’ll sell flowers.
Scott and I signed another four-year deal with Vox. And I think On is another four-year deal. I suspect maybe one more after that.
That was the other thing that was interesting about The New York Times story: the enormous amount of money you stand to make. Because of the deal you made with Vox Media, you’re very well-positioned to make a lot of money.
I’m less interested in the money itself, although I love that for you, but I’m actually interested in the decision to talk about how much money you make, which I don’t think people do enough. I’m just curious about why you did that.
Well, you just answered it: Because people don’t.
I think we lose power when we don’t say how much money we make. We also lose power when we don’t say what people aren’t making, ’cause a lot of it is bullshit, right?
So we already made a lot of money from our last deal. People don’t realize that.
How much money did you make?
In that one, um, $25 million, both of us together.
Then you split it?
So in that case, I had a guarantee of $500,000 for each show. And then if the guarantee wasn’t met, you didn’t get any more.
I don’t love guarantees, by the way. I think you shouldn’t have guarantees. If you make it, you make it. If you don’t, you don’t. I get why people do them, but we got a better split by not having the guarantee. So the last one we were getting a guarantee of, this is just for Pivot, each of us $500,000.
But the thing is, we made that money, we made that. Vox made it and more. You know, it was so interesting, because a lot of the union people were like, Oh, giving Kara the money. I’m like, I earned every fucking cent of that.
Well, you have a lucrative product.
That’s right. It also makes money to help Vox as a business. They made profits on it. They were able to do different and more things. So I just think people should talk about what they make, especially women. If you fuck up, you say, “Oh, that didn’t make money.” Like, we did a conference down in Florida. Didn’t make money. Didn’t make money because it was hard. It’s hard in the first year. Then we just didn’t do it anymore. But most of the things I’ve done, all of the things I’ve done, have made money.
Well, speaking of making money, you’re talking about retiring at 70. What I’m wondering is when, if ever, will you buy The Washington Post from Jeff Bezos?
Well, I have a whole plan.
I know you do. Are you still working on this plan?
I have inquired, I have gone back. I have an investment banker who’s been talking to his people. They are not engaging, and I don’t know. Like just today there was a story about how there’s no money to be made there. Like he has run this thing into the fucking wall. I guess he just doesn’t care.
He’s so rich, he doesn’t care. He is richer than ever. I have an idea that will make it break even, like not a really great business, at all, by any means. But I think it’s more than that. I have an idea about creator networks and stuff like that, but now it’s kind of water under the fucking bridge. If he had actually engaged with me at the time, or people like me. Instead he brings in this terrible CEO, who just soils himself on a daily basis and doesn’t want to do anything with it. So it’s sort of like, Why are the Ellisons on CBS? Why do the Ellisons want this? They aren’t interested in news. They want the studios. This is a cheaper way to get the studios. None of these people care about the news. I happen to care, like an idiot. I think I could do OK and employ people and create really good truthful reporting.
It wouldn’t be for the money. I think I can make it a business, a little business, like a pretty good business.
What role do you see yourself playing in that? Are you the CEO of this, of The Washington Post?
I would make [Vox Media CEO] Jim Bankoff the CEO, for example. Someone like that. Someone who has business acumen. I’d probably just be chairman of the board, or maybe editorial director. I don’t even need a title. I would get a kick-ass bunch of editors … I have a bunch of people I think would be great at it, but my theory depends more on journalism across the country.
Look what I’m wearing.
The Minnesota Star Tribune.
I was just there. A friend of mine is the CEO now. I was speaking in front of his staff. They’re trying to redo themselves. They happen to have a nice billionaire who owns them.
Love a nice billionaire.
Very innovative stuff they’re trying there. My friend Rene Sanchez is doing this thing in Louisiana that’s amazing. There’s all this stuff that needs a joint advertising, legal, distribution, video framework.
The New York Times, they do all their things really well by themselves, but there’s room for someone who brings everything together that has journalistic trust. I think The Post still barely has that.
I mean, by a thread. My question for you is, the Ellisons own CBS News now. They have oversight of TikTok and its algorithm. You’ve got Bezos at The Post. It’s a lot.
Except what are they buying? First, Bezos is doing nothing with The Post, so what’s the point? Then the Ellisons, like they buy something, like everyone was like, Oh, CBS. I’m like, Show of hands of people who last watched the CBS Evening News. It’s like nobody, right?
So what they’re buying is curiously problematic.
The question, I guess, is where does journalism go from here?
I wouldn’t rely on broadcast networks as journalism. There’s a reason I had you on [my podcast] and others. I’m gonna do one of those every quarter, because I’m so sick of seeing “things don’t work.” There’s many roads to get to places.
So you could do what you’re doing, which is taking a storied brand and actually reinvigorating it and trying all manner of different things. What doesn’t work, what works? I totally see your strategy—what you’ve done there and it’s worked, right? Subscriptions are up, maybe you’ll move into something else. You’re trying to be dynamic.
Then there’s all the independent outlets, of which there are many, and then there’s some that are coalescing. There are some that are video-only. There are some that are podcast-only.
Had Scott and I been younger, and we talked about this, we would’ve formed another podcast company and started to make more podcasts and create a network. I think we would’ve done rather well. We looked at each other, like, We’re too old. We would’ve done that, but we’re too fucking old. We really literally said that to each other. We’d make more money at that if we saw it through, we thought. But we would be exhausted.
And it sounds like you’re making enough.
That’s right.
You’re good.
We’re good and we’re influential. But someone should do that. Not us, but someone should do that. We could do it, but we were too tired and old.
Oh, too tired and old. Speaking of which, we’re gonna wrap up.
Sure.
But before we do I’m gonna force you to play a little game. It’s called Control, Alt, Delete. This is like Fuck, Mary, Kill but for nerds. So what piece of tech would you love to control? What would you alt, so alter or change? And what would you delete? What would you vanquish from the earth?
I don’t think I could, but social media I would delete, I would kill. Alter would be AI.
How would you alter it?
Just add safety guidelines and have more government regulations.
OK. So it’s the practical stuff.
But I believe in it. I’m not like one of those doomers, like it’s gonna kill us.
What would you control.
Control, I think government, so you could reform it so that it was more democratic. I think our form of government, as problematic as it is, has always been the best one. So I would get money outta politics. I would make the Supreme Court bigger. If I could do whatever I wanted, I’d pull a George fucking Washington is what I do.
I like this.
Not him. I’m not George Washington, but you know what I mean? Guess who invented the internet? The fucking government. I think our government is so critical to so many things that it deserves to have a renaissance.
Unfortunately, it’s been captured by oligarchs and a very coin-operated president. He’s the least of my worries.
What’s the most of your worries?
Oh, the tech guys. The tech guys, I would say everybody should be. Or just wealthy people in general controlling all of our fates.
They do not have our interests at heart, and I worry that they have too much. I think we’re gonna get to a point where they’re so rich it just will not end well.
I mean, it never ended well in the Gilded Age. The Gilded Age people only had the railroads, which were critical, but not everything. Like they have everything.
They have everything.
That worries me, especially when they have proven themselves to be selfish pricks most of the time.
Parting words.
Except Mark Cuban!
Except Mark Cuban.
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