History professor Mark Bray is no stranger to death threats. As the author of the book Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, published in 2017, he has received backlash and harassment from far-right circles for almost a decade. But things recently escalated after the Trump administration designated antifa as a “domestic terrorist organization,” and far-right influencers with a newfound power targeted Bray.
Michael Calore sits down with reporter David Gilbert and senior politics editor Leah Feiger to discuss what went down and how the role of far-right influencers has expanded exponentially during the past year.
You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, David Gilbert on Bluesky at @davidgilbert, and Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger. Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.
Mentioned in this episode:
He Wrote a Book About Antifa. Death Threats Are Driving Him Out of the US by David Gilbert
Trump Wants to Take Over Cities. Influencers Are Giving Him the Fuel to Do It by Makena Kelly
The Who’s Who of MAGA Influencers You Should Know About by Now by Makena Kelly
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Transcript
Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.
Michael Calore: Hey, Leah, how are you doing?
Leah Feiger: Hey, Mike. How’s it going?
Michael Calore: It’s going all right. Thanks for filling in for Lauren this week, and you’re on London time no less.
Leah Feiger: I am. Thrilled to be here, though, in Kingsland territory.
Michael Calore: In fact, both you and our colleague, the one and only David Gilbert, are joining us from across the pond today. David, how are you doing?
David Gilbert: I’m good, Mike. Thanks for having me today. I’m not in London though, just to be clear. I’m still here in Ireland.
Leah Feiger: And proud of it.
David Gilbert: Indeed.
Michael Calore: Well, David, we had to have you on the show today, because last week you reported a story that was pretty unorthodox, and to say the least scary. Can you tell us about it?
David Gilbert: Sure. The story was about Professor Mark Bray, who’s a professor of history at Rutgers University. And he’s probably best known because he wrote a book eight years ago now about antifa. And while they had been out of the news for a while, over the course of the last month or so, they have been back in the news and he has become the target of threats from far-right influencers, ultimately boiling down to the fact that he got death threats against him. His family’s home address was posted online. He got email address saying he’s being watched and other threats saying he’s going to be killed in front of his students. So he ultimately had to leave the country because of these threats. And I think what this really shows is just how powerful far-right influencers online have become, especially in the second Trump administration, where they effectively are being used as attack dogs by the administration to target the people who Trump and his allies feel are criticizing them and what they’re doing.
Michael Calore: This is WIRED’s Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. Today we’re talking about the latest chapter in antifa versus the far-right, at least the way that that’s been manufactured online. Last month, President Trump issued an executive order aiming to designate antifa as a “domestic terrorist organization,” even though in reality it’s not a coalition at all. And since then, conservative activists and far-right influencers have intensified their already heated backlash to figures they deem to be antifa members. The targeting of Rutger’s history professor Mark Bray is just among the latest developments. So we’ll dive into his story, how the role of far-right influencers in US politics has expanded exponentially, and what the role of tech companies is in all of this. I’m Michael Calore, director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
Leah Feiger: I’m Leah Feiger, Senior Politics Editor.
David Gilbert: And I’m David Gilbert, a reporter covering extremism and disinformation here at WIRED.
Michael Calore: So David, you were just telling us about Professor Bray’s experience of being targeted by the far right online. Let’s take a step back and understand why and how he was targeted in the first place. What happened that led to this latest wave of harassment?
David Gilbert: I suppose he has known that he’s been a target of the far-right for almost a decade now. He published a book called Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook back in 2017, which is a history of the anti-fascist movement, but a lot of people who didn’t read the book decided … saw the headline or saw the title of the book and decided that this was someone who was promoting antifa, some sort of organization that would fight back against the far right. And so he was painted as someone who was anti-Trump from the beginning and was therefore someone that they should be targeting. And so it was made worse, I guess, by the fact that when he published his book, he donated half the profits from the book to the International Anti-Fascist Defense Fund, which is this group that supports anti-fascist activists around the world. That led to him being placed on something called the Professor Watchlist, which is organized by Turning Point USA, the conservative activist group, which was co-founded by Charlie Kirk. Professor Watchlist is something where they posted the names of dozens of professors across the US who they believed were teaching anti-Trump rhetoric, I guess is how you could describe it, to students in universities. Woke ideology is another way that they describe it. And as a result, most of these professors received death threats including Professor Bray at the time, but they didn’t really rise to the level of the more recent threats he’s received, and so people moved on. Then again in 2020 when the protests erupted in the wake of the police killing of George Floyd and they were blamed on antifa. Again, he came into the headlines because he was called on as an expert on antifa to talk about that, and therefore he received criticism again. But over the course of the last five years, while antifa has been up and down in terms of its news coverage, he said he hasn’t really been attacked or threatened that much. That all changed last month when President Trump signed an executive order, which sought to designate antifa as a domestic terrorist organization. So in the wake of that executive order being signed, a lot of far-right influencers immediately went back to Professor Bray and started posting again about him, about how he was the person who has kind of incited this, and they called him a leader in the organization. Because of him donating the money to the anti-fascist organization, they called him a financier of antifa. So he became the kind of figurehead that people attacked as a result of Trump’s executive order. Then on October 2nd, the Turning Point USA chapter on Rutgers campus decided to launch a petition calling for Professor Bray to be fired. Fox News picked up this petition, even though it had less than 100 signatures at the time and boosted the story, and again, far-right protesters picked up on this, and again, Professor Bray got more death threats. And each time he got these death threats, they were becoming more and more specific, more and more threatening. Last weekend, he got an email, which he shared with WIRED, and we were able to review it, showing that the person had sent his home address so they knew exactly where he lived and saying that he was being monitored. He decided with his partner that they and their two kids would leave the country because they felt that their lives were in danger. You can understand why he felt his life was in danger because some of the threats that we reviewed had messages like, “I’ll kill you in front of your students,” or, “Your violent rhetoric is under investigation.” These messages very clearly were designed to scare him, and it obviously worked.
Michael Calore: That’s chilling. He’s a professor at Rutgers, so he has students who probably read his books and understand what he’s teaching. What was their reaction and what was the reaction of the university?
David Gilbert: Yeah, I spoke to one of his students who posted his email to his students on Reddit, and they were saying that they were really disappointed that he was leaving because they found his classes to be engaging and informative and they had lots of debate and he never pushed his specific political viewpoint on anyone. And there was lots of similar comments in that Reddit thread. Professor Bray said that the university had so far been very supportive of him. He had spoken to officials throughout the last couple of weeks, and they had kind of talked about changing his classroom location so that people wouldn’t know where the classes were actually taking place as a safety precaution. His union also came out in support from the American Association of University Professors. They condemned the Turning Point USA petition, and they said that silencing professors or silencing academics like this is something that happens in authoritarian regimes and should not be allowed to happen in the US.
Michael Calore: So did he and his family eventually make it out of the country?
David Gilbert: They did eventually. He tried last week to leave on Wednesday. He had booked a ticket and he had checked in his bags. He had gone through security, they had looked at his passport and he got to his gate, and for some reason, his reservation had disappeared. He could not get on the flight. United Airlines had not given an explanation why this happened or how this happened despite me asking them multiple times. They just told me that they weren’t going to comment on it anymore, and so he had to go to a hotel. He re-booked his flight for the following day, and luckily the following day he was able to get through, even though he was checked at security, this time he was searched. He finally got through and he got on the flight to Spain, and he’s currently in Spain now with his family.
Michael Calore: So we should say again, and you point this out in your reporting as you always have, that antifa is not an organization at all, but it’s a broad ideology that’s shaped by anti-fascist activists around the world over a number of years. But that hasn’t stopped the Trump administration from labeling it as a “domestic terrorist organization.” And in fact, about a week ago, there was a roundtable hosted at the White House to discuss antifa. The White House published a video afterward, and if you watch the video, you can see and hear top administration officials like Attorney General Pam Bondi and Kash Patel, who’s the director of the FBI, weighing in on the issue.
Speaker 4: Antifa beats journalists, antifa attacks our police stations, they attack our courthouses, they dox our law enforcement officers. No more. They are a terrorist group, and we are coming after them.
Speaker 5: They are an organized systemic, international criminal enterprise, and what the FBI is going to do is trace the money, follow the funds, and find every single person that was involved in funding the riots and the violent acts of criminality that they are perpetrating on our street.
Leah Feiger: I just love stuff like that, don’t you?
Michael Calore: An organized international systemic organization.
Leah Feiger: It makes it sound like we’re in a Marvel movie. This is not real life. There’s such a wild disconnect between what the administration is putting out about antifa terrorists and what things are in real life, which is obviously best encapsulated by Professor Bray, but it’s kind of magnificent, honestly. The very influencers that have made the administration scared of “antifa” are now making these influencers the arbiters of truth on all of this. I mean, David, we talked about this last week, right? It was a hall of fame of folks who are actually at the panel. Take us through some of them.
David Gilbert: Yeah, it was, and what was really interesting was I was doing my due diligence and my reporting for this because Professor Bray had said that one particular influencer after he had posted about it, he got a direct death threat minutes later from someone. It was Jack Posobiec, a far-right influencer and conspiracy theorist, and he was at the White House roundtable as I was messaging him to get a comment from my piece, and he responded to me and he just said, “Yes, I stand by what I said.” He called him a domestic terrorist professor. He was at the White House Roundtable, so was on the know another far-right influencer who has had many interactions with what he labels as antifa over the years and continuously has claimed that he has been attacked by antifa without ever really producing evidence of who he’s talking about or the attacks himself. Both of them were at this roundtable of a kind of, I’m not sure how to describe it. It was kind of a who’s who of people who are willing to say anything or do anything that the administration wants them to say in relation to antifa.
Leah Feiger: What’s kind of incredible about that is it wasn’t just influencers. Trump was the headliner.
David Gilbert: So it was like DHS secretary Kristi Noem. These are real people who are hanging out now in person in the White House with shit posters.
Michael Calore: And I think it’s just illustrative of how much power they currently hold in shaping the narrative of conservative politics.
Leah Feiger: Absolutely.
David Gilbert: It’s truly incredible that this actually happened in real life in 2025, because it is quite astonishing to see the level of power that the administration is giving these people, because all these people have huge followings online, and so their followers are now seeing them in the White House with Trump, with Kristi Noem and saying, “Oh, well, these guys must be telling us the truth because they’re being endorsed by the Trump administration.”
Michael Calore: So we talked through some of them. Who are the other well-known far-right influencers that we should know about, whether they were at the White House dinner or not?
Leah Feiger: That is such a big question, Mike. How many hours do you have? David, I feel like poor thing, you have spent years immersed in the pond, the swamp, the whatever this is.
David Gilbert: Yeah, it’s really hard because there’s definitely there’s factions even within the far right. You have major figures. Let’s say for example, like Tucker Carlson, who has a huge following. He used to be on Fox News and now he’s gone out on his own. So he has name recognition. He has a huge audience on X, and lots of people listen to him. Similarly, Steve Bannon has a long history of talking about this, but I think where it’s most interesting for us is, well, I hate to call Steve Bannon kind of establishment media or influencer, whatever you want to call him, in this world he is. He’s a known entity to an extent, and he has kind of been there for a long time, and we kind of know what he’s going to say. But the people who are at this roundtable and many, many others, there’s dozens of these guys and girls who are traveling around the country who are filming interactions with protesters, following ICE, conducting raids across the country. And these people up until recently would’ve been kind of unknown, and yet now they are in the White House talking to Trump, talking to Kristi Noem. They are getting access to officials and access to the actual raids, the actual protests that are happening that no one else is getting. And that’s mind-blowing to kind of see who these people are and the amount of power that they are being given.
Leah Feiger: I think it’s really helpful in some ways to divide these folks into categories. We had an article earlier this year, and we’ve been referring to them in this way for a while. We have the podcasters and the streamers, your Joe Rogan’s, the Schultz, like Andrew Schultz, Paul Brothers, Adin Ross, et cetera, who are either kind of circling the MAGA world or are very much in it, publishing their interviews with Vance and Trump and whomever they can convince to sit in a studio for longer than two hours. And then you go into the meme pages, the DC Drano, the Raging Americans, the whatever Elon Musk is retweeting on X with a hmm, interesting, heart sign, whatever.
David Gilbert: Wow is my favorite. Wow.
Leah Feiger: Wow is a really good one. And then you have the substackers kind of also in the podcast category, Jessica Reed Kraus, House and Habit, et cetera. And then this is maybe the most important one is the organizers, the people who are so involved in Republican ideology at the moment that not only are they helping shape it by pumping it out to their followers, but they’re actually cherry-picking the folks that are going to be able to shape it along with them. CJ Pearson jumps to mind. We’ve talked about him many times on WIRED.com’s politics section as a conservative creator who’s really young, who has massive inroads of the Republican National Committee, and just happens to be everywhere, knows everyone. And like David said, these different mechanisms have actually enabled folks to be on the ground in a way we just haven’t seen before. This is so organized. I think it’s really easy to look at the Trump administration and look at his Truth Social posts and go like, “This is nuts. This is all over the place.” No, this is organized. This is coordinated and it’s unbelievable to watch.
David Gilbert: Yeah, and I think one of the things to point out as well is that a lot, if not most of the people at that antifa roundtable, had links to Turning Point USA, and-
Leah Feiger: Really important point.
David Gilbert: … it just goes to show just how powerful that organization is. And even in the wake of Charlie Kirk’s death, I think you can make a case that Turning Point USA is now even more powerful than it was prior to September 10th when he was assassinated because he has become this kind of martyr figure. And there are so many people now vying to kind of take over his mantle and saying they’re going to continue to bring the organization forward. And I think the Trump administration has used, or historically over the course of the last few years, has used Turning Point USA as a vital cog in its machine to get organized. And what Leah said was exactly right is that this is incredibly organized. Trump is the figurehead, but he’s not doing any of the organizing, but the people underneath him, they know exactly what they’re doing, and they are shaping the narrative through the use of these far-right influencers and the speed with which the content is coming out from all of these figures is incredible.
Leah Feiger: Well, it’s really a question of are they hyping up their base or is now their influencer base hyping up them? David’s been covering this for a really long time, specifically on the far right of it all and the extremism of it all. McKenna Kelly, another senior writer at WIRED on the politics team, she’s been covering political influencers writ large, and she had a piece last week that I just want to point to that was titled, Trump Wants to Take Over Cities; Influencers Are Giving Him the Fuel To Do It. And she gets at the dichotomy here that is so revealing, the idea that in this particular instance, the administration, Trump, he needs that footage to say that Democrat-led cities, blue cities like Chicago and Portland are just absolute hellscapes. He needs that visual proof. He needs the influencers to give him that documentation, that violence has just entirely destroyed everything and everyone. And these influencers are supplying it in real time, because like David said earlier, they’re getting access to these behind the scenes. They’re right behind the National Guard. They’re on the ground with ICE. They are with DHS Secretary Noem as she is parachuting into wherever. These influencer embeds are, they’re expected now. I think that’s the part that continues to get me too. They’re absolute fixtures of their media strategy, and they’ve become a content mill, and it’s really tough to stay what the chicken or egg here is now. Is there a video of Noem standing in front of a fake burning building or what have you, what’s actually causing the requests for boots on the ground, or are they finding that footage because of that request?
Michael Calore: Yeah. OK. We need to take a quick break and then we’ll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. Today we’re talking about why a Rutgers professor had to flee from the US with his family after far-right influencers targeted him. Leah and David, we just touched upon how some of these voices on the far-right have grown in their role and their influence in the past year, but there’s also the role in the influence of the tech companies that run these social platforms. So my question is, to what extent do they hold any responsibility to make sure that somebody like Mark Bray doesn’t need to leave the country for safety reasons after being threatened with violence on their platforms?
David Gilbert: When you talk about responsibility in tech companies, I have a hard time bringing the two together because-
Leah Feiger: I was wondering what you were going to say on that.
David Gilbert: This is something I’ve covered for over a decade now, and for years it was mostly Facebook and it’s failure to moderate, especially outside of English language markets where it just abdicated all responsibility. And I was thinking, “OK, well what it does in Western markets, it will eventually roll out in non-English markets.” But what happened instead is what was happening in countries like Ethiopia, Myanmar has actually come into the US where now it’s just gone completely hands off here in the US as well and in Ireland and in the UK and everywhere else, basically. Every other social media company has followed suit, gone hands off and said, “We’re not going to bother moderating pretty much anything.” Aside from copyright material, which they are still very quick to take down, and child sexual abuse material, which they are still mostly still pretty quick to take down, everything else is kind of up for grabs. While Facebook and Instagram still aren’t as bad as X in terms of the kind of hate speech that’s on there, there’s just so much disinformation and dangerous information on there that it’s effectively a kind of a wild west and anything goes there. And so while yes, they bear responsibility, it’s something they don’t really care about anymore. They’ve shown that repeatedly because they haven’t done anything to address the situation in a long time.
Leah Feiger: I mean, these companies, if we’re talking Meta in particular, laid off all of their content moderation people, what feels like eons ago. The thing that really gets me is they’ve laid off all of these content moderation folks, election safety folks, what have you, and when we publish an article, like for example, our article a little bit ago about how far right extremist militias are organizing on Facebook, shout out to you Meta. I get angry calls from their folks there all the time who are like, “No, no, we’re looking into this. How dare you say that’s on here.” And I’m like, “I’m looking at it right now.” There’s this real disconnect I think between what the companies believe that they’re doing and believe that they haven’t abdicated and what they’re trying to communicate to the public versus what’s actually happening. I mean, the amount of medical disinformation alone, David, that you are covering constantly when it comes to vaccines, even recently.
David Gilbert: Yeah, we wrote a story about the drug Leucovarin that the Trump administration announced as … They didn’t announce it as a cure for autism, but the way they framed it, that’s how a lot of people interpreted it.
Leah Feiger: Or like a cure for autistic symptoms.
David Gilbert: A cure for autistic symptoms. Exactly. And what they did is they announced this, but they then failed to give any information about whatever dosage you should be giving to your children or how you should actually get it, or whether doctors should prescribe it or in what cases. And as a result of that lack of information, this Facebook group that I was monitoring exploded in size. There was 60, 65,000 members on it, and it was filled with just chaos and anger and confusion and conspiracy theories, and people spamming it to sell supplements that weren’t exactly the drug that people were looking for. And we posted a story about it and Facebook complained about the fact that we mentioned this Facebook group and nothing else. And I think they just don’t get it that there is all this information on their platform, and there’s so much of it that is incredibly dangerous, especially when it comes vaccines and medical information and children. I am in so many of these groups for my work because I have to be, and it’s terrifying and so heartbreaking to read the posts from these parents who are clearly looking for any answer. And the answer, unfortunately, a lot of time that they get is just misinformation, disinformation that is potentially even more dangerous for their children.
Leah Feiger: No, they don’t care. These companies have a very different bottom line.
David Gilbert: And if you want an example of how Meta doesn’t care, in August, they hired Robbie Starbuck, who is a young influencer, again, who has posted election denial information and anti-transgender information, and they hired him as an advisor, and he is working on helping them figure out AI bias, even though he has absolutely no expertise in that area. It just shows that they’re willing to basically do anything in order to get favorable decisions from the Trump administration right now because they know that if they cozy up to Trump, they’re not going to be punished like they are over here in Europe.
Michael Calore: And that is the song of our time.
David Gilbert: Yeah.
Leah Feiger: Absolutely.
Michael Calore: OK, well, thanks to you both for this conversation. We’re going to take another break and we’ll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. Leah, David, thank you for being here this week.
Leah Feiger: Thank you for having us, Mike. This has been great.
David Gilbert: Yeah, it’s been great.
Michael Calore: We’re not going to let you go, because it is time to share our personal recommendations, which will hopefully raise our spirits a bit after all of the heavy stuff that we talked about today. So Leah, do you want to go first?
Leah Feiger: Absolutely, Mike. Mine is an incredibly highbrow, esoteric—you guys have probably never even heard it or would have an even harder time understanding it if you were to engage with this content. And that is the most recent season of Love Is Blind, Denver edition. It is so good. It is off the walls. Everyone hates each other. No one should get married, and I love it. I really, really love it.
Michael Calore: OK. What is it that you love about it?
Leah Feiger: The chaos, the boring, boring chaos. It’s like, for sure, it’s high stakes for these people. These are real people with real lives and real feelings, but it’s, every single episode is like, “I just love you so much, but I don’t know if we’re compatible,” and I can sit and watch that for a pretty long time, it turns out.
Michael Calore: Wow.
Leah Feiger: And Denver, it’s just good. It’s a really, really chaotic season. This is one of my favorites in a while.
David Gilbert: Can I ask, is Love Is Blind the one where they talk to each other through a wall?
Leah Feiger: Just for the beginning, and then they get engaged through a wall, and then they get to have their life-meet. And the question Is love blind? is a very roundabout way of saying, are people really superficial? And it turns out that 90 percent of the time the answer is yes.
David Gilbert: Yeah, of course.
Leah Feiger: But sometimes-
David Gilbert: I could have probably told them that-
Leah Feiger: … it’s not.
David Gilbert: … since before the show.
Leah Feiger: David, it feels like you aren’t meeting me where I am with my culture if you don’t watch this with me-
David Gilbert: Probably not.
Leah Feiger: … to discuss it daily. Please.
Michael Calore: Leah, I really admire your dedication to the genre of reality television.
Leah Feiger: Thank you so much. Yes.
Michael Calore: I used to poo poo it because I don’t really watch it. I don’t really understand it. It’s not for me.
Leah Feiger: Like I said, it is just too intellectual for you, Mike.
Michael Calore: Well, I mean I wouldn’t go that far, but I would say that I have been, in the past, I have been very judgmental of people who put so much weight into reality television. But now I can say that anything that makes you feel good that does not involve harming other people or injecting drugs into your eyeballs is probably fine, and you should watch as much of it as you can stomach.
Leah Feiger: Thank you so much.
Michael Calore: David, what is your recommendation?
David Gilbert: So my recommendation is a film that was released I think last week on Netflix. It’s called Steve. It stars Cillian Murphy, who is from Cork in Ireland, where I’m from. So I suppose that’s partly the reason I’m recommending it. My wife loves Cillian Murphy. I think truly, deeply she’s in love with him. That’s OK. I’m-
Leah Feiger: This is taking kind of a turn, David.
David Gilbert: I’m OK with it. I’ve learned to live with it, but he’s also one of my favorite actors. I think he’s amazing. And this film was just incredible. It was something he wanted to do himself. He plays a kind of head teacher of a reform school or a school for kind of troubled kids, and it is incredibly gritty and incredibly grim and tough watching at times. But the performances are just really good. And even though the ending isn’t exactly what you’d call uplifting, I came away from it thinking that it was just a really powerful movie. I just really enjoyed it, and I would recommend anyone to watch it.
Michael Calore: All right.
Leah Feiger: I’m in. Mike, what’s yours?
Michael Calore: I’m going to recommend a book. It is called Ways of Being, by the author James Bridle. It’s been around for a few years. It’s out in paperback, so you can find it in bookstores or get it from the library pretty easily now. So I’m recommending it because it is one of the best books that I’ve read about computers and artificial intelligence. The book is about intelligence, and not only human intelligence, but intelligence of the more than human world. So the book explores how we define intelligence, how we measure it in ourselves, in orangutans and chimps, and in things like fungi and trees and goats and slime mold. And then it also takes a turn into the world of artificial intelligence and how we measure it and how we’ve built it over the years. And then a remarkable thing happens about two-thirds of the way through the book, is that it gets very political and starts talking about what intelligence for computers and for humans should look like going forward, and the types of considerations that we need to place into artificial intelligence systems in order to make sure that they are not used for harm and that they’re not used as tools of violence and oppression. And the author, James Bridle, uses all kinds of examples to explain why those safeguards are necessary. So I’m sure people who are total computer history wonks are going to read it and maybe roll their eyes a little bit, but for me, a person who is thoroughly a layperson and is just curious, which is why I do what I do for a living, it was really eye-opening and really informative. It’s also just fun, and it’s really a lovely read, because James Bridle is a very good writer.
Leah Feiger: That sounds really good. That’s a good recommend.
David Gilbert: Yeah, that sounds fascinating.
Leah Feiger: I’m going to look into that.
Michael Calore: Yeah, Ways of Being. It’s one of those books that I have one copy of it and I am really racking my brain to try and figure out who needs to read it first in my inner circle.
Leah Feiger: Well, that’s nice.
Michael Calore: Well, thank you both for being here today.
Leah Feiger: Thank you.
David Gilbert: Thanks for having me. It’s been great.
Michael Calore: And thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you’d like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, you can write to us at uncannyvalley@WIRED.com. Today’s show is produced by Adriana Tapia and Mark Lyda. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Mark Lyda is our San Francisco studio engineer. Luke Moseley is our London studio engineer, Matt Giles fact-checked this episode. Kate Osborn is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED’s global editorial director, and Chris Bannon is Condé Nast’s head of global audio.
